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Hi guys. Playing history: started town newbie XXII, was scum XXIII, town XXIV, scum XXV; also playing NMM III right now. Filters available upon request.
Currently reading through the thread. Agree with Hapa's lynch lurkers policy. I'm going to add that lurkers who are among the last folks to start posting should include cases in their first posts. If they don't, I will vote to lynch them. Why? Because when scum lurks and then doesn't have to commit early, they can test the waters for mislynching bad townies before committing to reads. This policy is to remove that opportunity.
(Ideally, though, the point is not to lynch lurkers for easy votes -- that's how scum can get bad townies mislynched. The point is to prod lurkers to post.)
Now, onto reads: No one's being serious right now other than Hapa, Hero, Risen, and Mattchew (which is now me.) Mkfuba07 and Zentor are two people who are active but relatively devoid of content in their posts, and hence earn my first two FoS this game.
Also, hi Mkfuba07!
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On August 31 2012 14:26 BlackMamba24 wrote: I wouldn't policy lynch someone abstaining. From my perspective, at least personally, there's not much reason for mafia to abstain from voting so early. It isn't suspicious to hold onto your vote until later in the day unless someone is really in the hot seat, so what's the point of an early abstain? Maybe a really new mafia player would do it.
Personally, as scum, I love policy lynches that aren't "Lynch All Liars". If the town lynches based on policy and not behaviors and inconsistencies then mafia can hide behind the policy lynch and kill townies day in and day out.
There's no serious reason for a townie to abstain from voting besides the fear of voting for the wrong person or a general lack of interest in the game, something that is less common with scum. Newer scum players also have a team to advise them on how to act whereas a newer or less confident townie can only rely on his or her own judgment.
Are scum given safe roleclaims or specific town-aligned role names?
Two things here:
1) Black who are your top reads in the game so far?
Personally, as scum, I love policy lynches that aren't "Lynch All Liars". 2) Why would you as scum dislike lynch all liars over other types of policy lynches?
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On August 31 2012 14:30 Hopeless1der wrote:Show nested quote +On August 31 2012 11:58 Hapahauli wrote:On August 31 2012 11:40 Hopeless1der wrote: Zeph is likely to take care of any actual lurking, but Hapa is right. If I'm too silent for too long, I expect to hear about it, preferably before I'm policy lynched for it. I'll apply the same principle to everyone else in the game. Actually waaaaait a minute here. Are you suggesting that you'll be lurky or something? Surely you shouldn't be worried about "reminders" or whatnot if you're indeed pro-town and intend to post? ##Vote Hopeless1der I'm saying I don't want to die, least of all to a policy lynch. I'd anticipate that most. if not all the players, would agree with that general sentiment. If people think I'm lurking, I don't want them to just lynch me with no discussion, I'd rather have the opportunity to make my thoughts known so that I could at least give the town something useful besides my flip. I want to make the most informed decision on who to lynch, instead of lynching by policy and getting very little out of it.
I think Hopeless is saying something quite townish here. He's saying that he hopes people will warn him if he's lurking instead of just hammering him. Hapa, why are you turning his call for a warning shot into a suggestion that he will lurk? This is twisting something perfectly townish into a scum read, and then voting him on it.
You weren't like this in XXIII (when you flipped Cop), indeed, there, you refrained from making a D1 vote until the very last 2 hours prior to lynch. And in this game, there are a whole bunch more lurkers/bad townies at this point in time for you to list out/go after than Hopeless or any of your shortlisted names in XXIII.
So why would you go for it this time?
FoS Hapahauli
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Checking out of this thread. Will be back tomorrow morning.
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On August 31 2012 14:43 BlackMamba24 wrote: Because unlike other policy lynches, lying is something only mafia need to do. Town lurks just as often as scum do, the vote abstaining thing doesn't mean much, but when someone gets caught in an outright lie they need to justify it rigorously and if they can't they are probably scum. The only time I wouldn't immediately vote for someone caught lying is in some really really strange closed setup. I remember in Arkham Asylum scum there were probably more lying townies than scum because people try to set traps with their roles and it never works.
Lying is more directly meaningful. If you vote just for lurkers, the mafia can congregate and influence the vote to lynch a town-aligned lurker so I don't think it helps much. You have to consider content first.
Anyway, it's too early for me to say if I have any reads at all. I've yet to read anything that has jumped out at me.
I think you'll probably need to mix meta reads into this as well. I played with Lvdr twice, and one time he lied heavily as town (he called it "faking a read to generate D1 discussion"); the other time he didn't lie and was town as well.
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On August 31 2012 14:50 Shady Sands wrote:Show nested quote +On August 31 2012 14:43 BlackMamba24 wrote: Because unlike other policy lynches, lying is something only mafia need to do. Town lurks just as often as scum do, the vote abstaining thing doesn't mean much, but when someone gets caught in an outright lie they need to justify it rigorously and if they can't they are probably scum. The only time I wouldn't immediately vote for someone caught lying is in some really really strange closed setup. I remember in Arkham Asylum scum there were probably more lying townies than scum because people try to set traps with their roles and it never works.
Lying is more directly meaningful. If you vote just for lurkers, the mafia can congregate and influence the vote to lynch a town-aligned lurker so I don't think it helps much. You have to consider content first.
Anyway, it's too early for me to say if I have any reads at all. I've yet to read anything that has jumped out at me. I think you'll probably need to mix meta reads into this as well. I played with Lvdr twice, and one time he lied heavily as town (he called it "faking a read to generate D1 discussion"); the other time he didn't lie and was town as well.
But if scum wagon a townie lurker, doesn't that also expose them all conveniently onto one wagon once the lurker flips green? Are you suggesting that scum here might decide to put all their votes on one lynch?
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On August 31 2012 14:53 BlackMamba24 wrote: I've lied as town before, but voting and pushing someone who lies gets you somewhere at least. If that person is town, mafia will likely be the ones pushing LAL the hardest saying that no matter how he justifies it town would never lie and we should lynch them.
In any case, lies deserve more analysis and suspicion than someone not posting for a couple hours. That's all. When I say I could get behind LAL as a policy lynch, I think people should vote and pressure people caught lying to force them to defend themselves and post often. That's the worst case scenario for scum anyway.
Fair enough. You still haven't posted any reads D1 yet. We're more than 12 hours in. What are your reads?
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On August 31 2012 15:00 BlackMamba24 wrote: You'll know what they are when I have any. Why don't you have any right now?
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If you don't post your reads soon I will be forced to vote you. This has always been my policy.
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Where are node and mementoss?
Also, Solarsail seems to be trying to skulk through an active discussion. I don't really like that.
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On September 01 2012 00:56 Hapahauli wrote:Show nested quote +On September 01 2012 00:33 Shady Sands wrote: Where are node and mementoss?
Also, Solarsail seems to be trying to skulk through an active discussion. I don't really like that. Speaking of skulking through an active discussion... I have an excuse, being at work and all.
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On September 01 2012 01:21 Mementoss wrote: I'm not too fond of the way ghost has been defending mamba at every chance he gets. It's fine to defend a player if you don't think they're town but leave it at that. Cause when he comes back to the thread he can just mirror the things that ghost said to defend him, or otherwise there is at least a lot less pressure on him to give an adquete response about his case and such. That being said, most of ghosts talk so far has been on this, so I would like to ask him if he had to make a vote now, who would it be and why?
My opinion on this BMB fiasco is that he seems a bit scummy to me. His posts just rub me the wrong way and his case was bad. I'm not going to go much farther into this as it's already been fleshed out by many but I'll be interested in seeing a response from him. The way he talks about his personal scum preferences is odd, and the question to the hosts could just be a scam to make himself look town, when he actually knew the answer because he received this fake role. I think the case was bad and forced from a scum perspective because if you look through his early filter he realized he was talking a lot, but it was purely filler, and was scared of getting called out on it soon, so he decided to make a case up so no one would call him out for "contributing without actually saying much".
I agree that Risen's play is not his normal town play, of guns blazing and doing crazy shit to get reactions out.
If we are going to set the tone here that lurking is unacceptable as town we might as well start day one, and try to set ourselves up for a winning situation later in the game. Also based on his less than stellar game history... So for now..
##Vote: Mr.Zentor
Also I think that people should be giving their gut thoughts and put in a vote at the start of each day, so we can discuss our way through the best person for the lynch throughout the day. People don't seem to realize how short a 24 hour cycle is, so getting a vote in ASAP is important for discussion and consolidation on voting out a scum. Obviously this is impossible to do on day 1, but I think it should be done for further days.
This post makes absolutely no sense. Momen can you further explain?
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Hapa what's your read on the Momen case?
My read on Momen is scum but I want to give him a chance to respond to the accusations before voting him.
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Alright, enough of this bullshit.
## Vote Node
Until he posts. I'm also amenable to a wagon on Zentor.
As for Momen, I want to his response. As for BlackMamba, I haven't had a chance to read through his filter yet. Will check thread again 5 hours from now.
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On September 01 2012 04:59 marvellosity wrote:Show nested quote +On September 01 2012 04:47 strongandbig wrote:On September 01 2012 04:25 marvellosity wrote: ok it's not been discussed at all, but it keeps being pushed.
s&b seems to think that Mamba's case which is full of crap is less scummy than Hapa's pressure vote on Hopeless1der, and it makes no sense to me at all. He says he's not happy to vote someone based on one bad case, but is extremely happy to be suspicious of Hapa pressuring Hopeless.
Why this disparity? Marv you were obsing ptp. VE and wiggles both made cases that were just as crappy as this one, I called them both scum, and they both flipped town. I just am not convinced that making bad cases is a good scum tell anymore. Like, does his case push a scum agenda or sew confusion? No, to me it just looks bad. It is weird that blackmamba just disappeared. If he leaves his vote on hapahauli without making a new case then he'll jump to the top of my scum list. And one other thing - I had been looking at hapa's vote on hopeless as "I think you are scum and want to kill you." That's how I vote - if I vote early in the day like that, I expect everyone to understand from that "I really mean what I'm saying right now, I'm serious about it." Like I said last time, it makes no sense when you think of it as meaning that, but when you change how you're thinking of it to a "pressure vote" it sounds better. Alright. You and ghost were both doing the same thing effectively so the explanation is reasonable. I don't wanna lynch Mementoss. He's cute. The thing with Blackmamba - the case was bad, ok. But if it was to cause discussion, then fine. Except he hasn't been around to actually deal with the discussion, and I find that scummy. I'd fucking love to policy lynch Zentor but annoyingly I can't quite bring myself to ##Vote: Blackmamba24
y no mention of node?
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Hi guys, I'm back. Given that Node is going to get modkilled: ##Unvote
I read Risen's case on me and I like it. It's long, which earns points in my book. That being said, I disagree with its conclusion that I am scum, since I'm not. I'll respond to it in a bit, but first and foremost, I'd like everyone to focus on the scummiest player so far:
Ghost_403
Here's how Ghost kicks off his scumhunt:
On August 31 2012 22:35 ghost_403 wrote: I agree with Hapa: BMB's case was lackluster at best. Hapa came into the thread, posted "I'm town, flavor sucks", and that's it. I really don't see that as some sort of scum tell on his part.
BMB: I'm curious. Has anyone else in the thread stuck out to you as playing scummy?
Marv: What do you think about BMB's case against Hapa?
Risen's play this game is a little off from the Risen we all know and love. Not sure exactly why as of yet. Could be it's just been a while since he's played.
Completely fluffy. First agrees that the case is lackluster, but no tell. Then asks BMB for more reads while he himself posts no reads. Then asks Marv for reads on BMB. Then offers a null tell on Risen. I essence... much ado about nothing.
Then defends BMB from Hapa in an effort to look active. But again, no scumreads.
On August 31 2012 22:51 ghost_403 wrote: Calm down, Hapa. Just because BMB wrote up a subpar case on Day 1 does not mean that he's scum. BMB (aka DoctorHelvetica) is very good at this game. I doubt that anyone can know his alignment quite yet, nevermind based on a single case he's presented on Day 1.
@BMB: You are DrH, right?
Then again a no-content post, just a defense of his own actions.
On August 31 2012 23:22 ghost_403 wrote:Show nested quote +On August 31 2012 22:53 marvellosity wrote:On August 31 2012 22:51 ghost_403 wrote: Calm down, Hapa. Just because BMB wrote up a subpar case on Day 1 does not mean that he's scum. BMB (aka DoctorHelvetica) is very good at this game. I doubt that anyone can know his alignment quite yet, nevermind based on a single case he's presented on Day 1.
@BMB: You are DrH, right? Why are you attacking Hapa for pressuring a pile of shit case? I'm not attacking, I'm telling him to take a step back and evaluate whether he thinks that BMB's case was due to (a) him being scum or (b) him writing up a case 5 hours into the game. The two of those are very different, and I don't see evidence in his analysis of him thinking that question through.
Then Ghost goes huge WIFOM. He even lampshades it.
On August 31 2012 23:29 ghost_403 wrote:Show nested quote +On August 31 2012 23:26 marvellosity wrote:On August 31 2012 23:22 ghost_403 wrote:On August 31 2012 22:53 marvellosity wrote:On August 31 2012 22:51 ghost_403 wrote: Calm down, Hapa. Just because BMB wrote up a subpar case on Day 1 does not mean that he's scum. BMB (aka DoctorHelvetica) is very good at this game. I doubt that anyone can know his alignment quite yet, nevermind based on a single case he's presented on Day 1.
@BMB: You are DrH, right? Why are you attacking Hapa for pressuring a pile of shit case? I'm not attacking, I'm telling him to take a step back and evaluate whether he thinks that BMB's case was due to (a) him being scum or (b) him writing up a case 5 hours into the game. The two of those are very different, and I don't see evidence in his analysis of him thinking that question through. I'm curious, because by your own reasoning 1) DrH made a bad case 2) DrH is a very good player does it not make more sense that a bad case from someone you think is good is scummier than a bad case from a nublet? WIFOM mode engage! Don't you think that someone as good as BMB would, as scum, be more careful to not make a bad case? I see this as BMB just being aggressive and trying to get the ball moving. I can't imagine him being quite so bold and careless as scum. Do you think that his case is really a scum-tell?
Still no case at this point. We have Hapa, Hopeless, Memento, BMB, and myself all making lots of noise but he somehow seems to think everyone is just a confused townie. Which would make a lot of sense if he had prior knowledge as scum.
On August 31 2012 23:38 ghost_403 wrote:Show nested quote +On August 31 2012 23:34 marvellosity wrote:On August 31 2012 23:29 ghost_403 wrote:On August 31 2012 23:26 marvellosity wrote:On August 31 2012 23:22 ghost_403 wrote:On August 31 2012 22:53 marvellosity wrote:On August 31 2012 22:51 ghost_403 wrote: Calm down, Hapa. Just because BMB wrote up a subpar case on Day 1 does not mean that he's scum. BMB (aka DoctorHelvetica) is very good at this game. I doubt that anyone can know his alignment quite yet, nevermind based on a single case he's presented on Day 1.
@BMB: You are DrH, right? Why are you attacking Hapa for pressuring a pile of shit case? I'm not attacking, I'm telling him to take a step back and evaluate whether he thinks that BMB's case was due to (a) him being scum or (b) him writing up a case 5 hours into the game. The two of those are very different, and I don't see evidence in his analysis of him thinking that question through. I'm curious, because by your own reasoning 1) DrH made a bad case 2) DrH is a very good player does it not make more sense that a bad case from someone you think is good is scummier than a bad case from a nublet? WIFOM mode engage! Don't you think that someone as good as BMB would, as scum, be more careful to not make a bad case? I see this as BMB just being aggressive and trying to get the ball moving. I can't imagine him being quite so bold and careless as scum. Do you think that his case is really a scum-tell? yeah, ok, let's not go down the WIFOM road. Suffice to say, when someone does something bad, "he should know not to do something bad" has always struck me as an inadequate way of explaining it away. Black's case is certainly scummier than what he was making the case on (hapa's play). Conversely, do you see that case as a town-tell? My spreadsheet has BMB marked down as scum due to that case, but I'm not convinced on it enough to vote him yet. BMB is a good player, and lynching him based on a bad case he made this early on Day 1 is terrible play. I'm certainly going to be watching him closely. What I would really like from him is for him to come back and tell us his thoughts on everyone's reactions to his case. That would tell me a lot more about his alignment than what he's already said in thread.
Whoa! We have a scumread now! Everyone drop socks and grab your throttles, because after half a day of posting Ghost says BMB is scum. Except...
Don't you think that someone as good as BMB would, as scum, be more careful to not make a bad case?
I see this as BMB just being aggressive and trying to get the ball moving. I can't imagine him being quite so bold and careless as scum.
Do you think that his case is really a scum-tell? This is what Ghost posted in his very own previous post. What? Classic case of scum forgetting what he wrote earlier and just trying to agree with people. Then he tries to split hairs about BMB (I think he's scum but I don't see his posting behavior/casemaking as scum!) then asks people what they think about BMB.
On September 01 2012 00:48 ghost_403 wrote: Gut reaction. What are your thoughts on BMB's alignment? Then says he hasn't found a scum candidate yet:
On September 01 2012 03:15 ghost_403 wrote: Well, since I'd rather lynch scum today, I haven't quite made up my mind. Plenty of town reads, but haven't found a good scum candidate quite yet. I'll let you know when I find one. But he'd be happy with a MMToss lynch in the very next post. What?
On September 01 2012 03:20 ghost_403 wrote: Actually, I'd be pretty happy with a MMToss lynch. Still waiting for S+B to chime in.
Playing mafia while TI2 is on is really hard. Then he votes MMToss as soon as HiroPro makes a big case on MMToss. But there's no independent analysis from ghost as to why he's making this vote as opposed to BMB (who he has marked down as scum in his spreadsheet.)
Then he offers a defense of his actions:
On September 01 2012 03:49 ghost_403 wrote: Palmar being AFK is probably due to the TI2, I'm withholding judgement on him until he comes back. Can't change my mind on Risen until he comes back and starts acting more or less Risen. Marv's disappearance is disconcerting, but probably not alignment indicative.
I never said BMB was not mafia, I just said that I'm not ready to lynch him over a single bad case he had presented. I'm still waiting for him to come back into the thread and respond to what's happened. His response is going to determine my view of his alignment.
Still not quite sure of what I think of S+B. I haven't seen a scum player make a legit fakeclaim for a long time, so based on the metagame, I'm inclined to believe him when he claimed miller. However, you're right, his posts have been a little bit off. That's why I really want him to chime in on the MMToss situation. Every single read he gives is null or townie. Again, no justification for the MMToss vote and then keeps splitting hairs over BMB. He asks other people to look at MMToss (gotta keep that scum wagon rolling, yo) but then doesn't offer any justification for the vote himself.
I find Ghost's entire train of reasoning on Mementoss consistent with a scum with prior knowledge of alignments, trying to stay active without posting real content.
Therefore: ## Vote Ghost_403
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Is everyone just ignoring my fucking case on ghost?
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On September 01 2012 08:05 Mementoss wrote:Show nested quote +On September 01 2012 08:03 Palmar wrote: hey I'll be voting whatever ghost_403 is voting because I think he's town. why do you think he is town?
What the heck? How about this for a question: Palmar, do you think you are town? If you think you are town, why don't you vote whoever you yourself think is scum?
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On September 01 2012 08:05 strongandbig wrote:Show nested quote +On September 01 2012 07:58 BlackMamba24 wrote:On September 01 2012 07:51 Hapahauli wrote:On September 01 2012 07:25 BlackMamba24 wrote: ... Anyway can anyone familiar with strongandbigs meta tell me if it is normal for him, as town, to make huge fucking posts immediately and add a ton of bravado like that into anything he says cause if not I'm saying we should lynch him. Pardon my skepticism, but is this really a scumtell? Even if he historically makes smaller posts as town, I can't imagine why making larger posts would make him mafia, even on a meta-basis. One scum almost always takes it upon themselves to make large posts early on and establish themselves as very very "pro-town". They love buzzwords like "anti-town" and other stupid things like that. I just can't see any reason for a townie to spend that much time, early in the game, establishing their townieness unless there is a mayoral election or something like that. The fakeclaim is throwing me off. There's also that contradiction that you yourself pointed out. I can understand why a scum player would defend me as well, they might be thinking there's no reason to go after me early on and get OMGUS'd or get my attention when they can kill me at night but I'm not really that good. My town meta is to pin the entire mafia team Day 2 and then vote for everyone else instead. Or maybe it's not a fake claim and I'm actually a miller? And I want to deal with that and get it out of the way in a game full of detectives? Occam's razor, man. One terrible case is excusable, but two is too much to be a coincidence. I mean seriously, what you're saying is that I tried too hard to help town out when I told everyone that I'm a miller, and therefore I must be scum? In what world does that make sense?
Strong: the Green role is called Detective, since that's the theme name for a Death Note Mini. (I wouldn't have chosen that theme name if I ran things but that's a moot point.)
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On September 01 2012 07:59 HiroPro wrote: hey shady, I'd like if you could make a response to MT's case.
Sure.
MT's case on me is based on a misread of my reasons for calling him scum. He thinks I'm calling him scum for pushing a lynch lurker policy. I'm not. I never had a chance to offer my reasoning on calling him scum; that's why I never voted him.
My prior scumread on him was based on his "all-over-the-place" case. He's explained that already. My read on him is closer to null now.
As for his accusations here:
Show nested quote +On September 01 2012 04:40 Shady Sands wrote: Alright, enough of this bullshit.
## Vote Node
Until he posts. I'm also amenable to a wagon on Zentor.
As for Momen, I want to his response. As for BlackMamba, I haven't had a chance to read through his filter yet. Will check thread again 5 hours from now. Wait isn't this also what the case on me said. Voting someone to get discussion out of someone? So Shady is being very hypocritical calling me scum for things he is doing as well. He doesn't even know BMB's filter, its only been 12 pages for the whole game, and BMB has been the main discussion for the whole time. He doesn't know about the main day 1 discussion? Does he care? He asks me for a response, but never specifies what this response is. He also says he will wagon on Zentor. Wow. So he has a scum read on me, but hes willing to vote on Node or Zentor, and has BMB in his mind. Wow Shady is sure keeping his options open.. So MKfuba you better have a better reason for voting me, other than I seem indifferent for who gets lynched, when you have Slim Shady over here voting anyone who is the popular choice at the time. So everyone who voted me, why don't you explain why you think I'm scum, rather than just regergitate what I posted and tell people what you think it meant? How is what I posted scum motivated etc?
I voted Node because I was pissed that he wasn't making a single post in a game with a 24 hour day. That's not just anti-town play; it's pretty much playing against town wincon. As for Zentor, he was active lurking at the time. Didn't like how he was posting, so I thought I'd nudge him. Wasn't worth a vote yet. As for BMB, I honestly hadn't read through his filter yet, but people kept bringing him up in the discussion so I thought I should. Now that I have, I have a mild town read on BMB.
Since I honestly hadn't been able to keep up with the game, I thought I should just lay some names on the table. If you've seen my activity levels both as scum and town before, you'll know that if I'm in the thread I'm usually posting or prodding.
Anyhow, we need to lynch Ghost. He's pretty much been lurking about the thread and seeming active, but posting in a completely unproductive and "trying to gain towncred" manner. Furthermore, his MMToss vote is just bad. It's almost there to make it seem like he's not sheeping, when in reality he is.
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